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Reasonably Important => The News => Topic started by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 07:33:31 PM

Title: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 07:33:31 PM
Well that went well, didn't it!!

Earlier today it was being touted that there was agreement between the UK and Ireland to arrange special dispensation regarding border restrictions, including whether there should be a border in any meaningful sense at all.

Next thing we have Nicola Sturgeon saying "we want the same agreement for Scotland" and the DUP saying: "not on your Nellie! We are British and we'll have the same rules as the rest of the UK."

This kills the UK/Irish agreement stone dead. It also places the confidence and supply agreement the DUP has with the Conservatives under some strain and the DUP are not known for their williingness to engage in compromise.

So the DUP is, in effect, demanding the hardest of Hard Brexits possible meaning in turn we have no negotiating position with the EU whatsover other than to aim for Brexit as a cliff's edge.

And it leaves Theresa May as PM in as weak a position as any PM could fear to endure because if the DUP ends their S&C agreement she'll have to soldier on as a minority government despised in equal part by the Brextremists (or do we prefer "Beleavers"?) and Remoaners alike.

What a complete mess.

The only constant here is that everybody in the Conservative Party seems to be utterly incompetent and impotent to do anything other than see Brexit implode due to its own contradictions.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 04, 2017, 09:03:39 PM
Looking more & more like UK gov will implode very soon and then UK either remains in EU -OR- enters a CETA style deal following many EU rules
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 04, 2017, 09:04:34 PM
UK being forced to do as 10 hardline extremist NI MPs want is feckin crazy
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 09:30:01 PM
Where do you begin on this?

It is bewildering that Theresa May should negotiate an agreement with the Irish Taioseach and for it then to be all but published and for no thought at all be given to the DUP's stance on the matter.

I am far from expert in Irish/Northern Irish politics but surely this was entirely foreseeable? It's almost the DUP default position on everything to oppose whatever the Irish government wants, isn't it?, and the DUP has made clear it opposes any move that would separate Ulster from Britain, politically, economically or in any other way. Last week, it went as far as to brief that it would have to consider its support for the government in the case of Theresa May ignoring its preferences.

And our PM didn't take any notice?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 04, 2017, 09:42:00 PM
Quite.
It is unbelievable.
This utterly useless PM negotiates behind the back of the very people who keep her in power to keep NI in the EU in spite of the UK’s Brexit vote.
Uniting Ireland st a stroke.
Utterly loathsome as this bunch of homophobic, creationistic hooligans the DUP are,  at least they stand their ground.
There are no limits to this woman’s incompetence.
And now we have, of course, Sturgeon waking up to the possibility of remaining.
And the Brexit Minister, David Davies?
He’s more concerned with defending an allegedly lying and squalid colleague.
Curtain measuring time, Mrs. C.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 10:02:24 PM
David Davies is prepared to resign from government if Damian Green is sanctioned for having a colossal amount of porn on his HoC desktop.

Essentially he is defending the expenditure of tax payers' money that has been spent on the equipment needed, the building that houses it and the wage paid to somebody who wants to knock one off in his office: DD is pro state-sponsored wanking, in effect.

Unless somebody else did it using Green's log in, his desk, his office and, presumably his box of tissues too.

In which case Green has shared his password in breach of the HoC IT protocols all MPs sign up to and has handed somebody or somebodies, probably without the necessary security clearance, access to emails and other documents only ministers, not even MPs but ministers, should have access to and given that Green is First Secretary of State and Minister for the Cabinet Office and deputises for May at PMQs that'll be just about everything there is.

This is the calibre of people we have at the highest echelons of our government.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 04, 2017, 10:19:49 PM
Well said.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Alizarin on December 04, 2017, 11:12:58 PM
David Davies is prepared to resign from government if Damian Green is sanctioned for having a colossal amount of porn on his HoC desktop.

Essentially he is defending the expenditure of tax payers' money that has been spent on the equipment needed, the building that houses it and the wage paid to somebody who wants to knock one off in his office: DD is pro state-sponsored wanking, in effect.

Unless somebody else did it using Green's log in, his desk, his office and, presumably his box of tissues too.

In which case Green has shared his password in breach of the HoC IT protocols all MPs sign up to and has handed somebody or somebodies, probably without the necessary security clearance, access to emails and other documents only ministers, not even MPs but ministers, should have access to and given that Green is First Secretary of State and Minister for the Cabinet Office and deputises for May at PMQs that'll be just about everything there is.

This is the calibre of people we have at the highest echelons of our government.

I doubt he really gives a stuff about Damien Green, TBH.  He's just getting his excuse in early.  Since when did any Tory MP win admirers in the Tory heartlands by defending MPs accessing porn on the tax payer's time and at the tax payer's expense! Especially one of David Davies' style who likes to think he's the darling of the Tory grass roots.  Tory voters have had it drilled into their tiny heads for decades that the overpaid, wasteful, public sector bureaucrat sits by the devil's side.
 
In my view, he's looking for an escape route out of this shambles.  A long time Europhobe and strong opponent of the EU.  The job he's in should be his dream job really, but like many Brextards he's woken up and smelt the shit coffee that Brexit is and realises it's one thing to grandstand in Parliament and write hack pieces for sympathetic UK Tory rags, it's another thing getting down to the Realpolitik of Brexit.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 11:21:27 PM
You may be right.

Davies has exhibited a shocking grasp of his brief and made so many errors... It has become ever harder to tell if he was lying or just incompetent.

Here he is on the Andrew Marr Show denying that Brexit would entail a £50bn exit fee.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/sep/03/david-davis-50bn-brexit-divorce-bill-nonsense-video (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/video/2017/sep/03/david-davis-50bn-brexit-divorce-bill-nonsense-video)

Here's what is really happening.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42161346 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-42161346)

And there is so much more I could point to like the civil service reports that he hasn't read and doesn't want to release and... Oh I can't be arsed.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 04, 2017, 11:35:04 PM
We started Brexit negotiations offering no transition period, 20 bn euros maximum, and no special arrangements for Northern Ireland. Now it’s 2-3 years transition, 60 bn euros, and special arrangements for Northern Ireland.

One by one every single objective that Brexit was supposed to deliver is falling apart before our very eyes. If much more goes there'll be no point in continuing.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sven on December 05, 2017, 07:06:22 AM
We started Brexit negotiations offering no transition period, 20 bn euros maximum, and no special arrangements for Northern Ireland. Now it’s 2-3 years transition, 60 bn euros, and special arrangements for Northern Ireland.

One by one every single objective that Brexit was supposed to deliver is falling apart before our very eyes. If much more goes there'll be no point in continuing.

Good.

This is democracy in action by the way.

Reaching compromise and seeking the best solution for all.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 05, 2017, 09:41:59 AM
Foster is a bloody liar.
There is already ‘divergence’ in NI.
No abortion, no same sex marriage, for example.
Still, it doesn’t justify the stroke Maybot tried to pull.
Foster and Maybot.
Could politics sink any lower?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: tequila_nic on December 05, 2017, 10:03:54 AM
https://order-order.com/2017/12/04/sadiq-sturgeon-deliberately-misleading/

'Sadiq is lying, Sturgeon is deliberately misleading, and the pro-Remain media are lapping it up…'

Nic
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: plandalet on December 05, 2017, 12:33:24 PM
https://order-order.com/2017/12/04/sadiq-sturgeon-deliberately-misleading/

'Sadiq is lying, Sturgeon is deliberately misleading, and the pro-Remain media are lapping it up…'

Nic

What do you think "remaining in regulatory compliance with the Common market" means?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 05, 2017, 04:54:29 PM
https://order-order.com/2017/12/04/sadiq-sturgeon-deliberately-misleading/

'Sadiq is lying, Sturgeon is deliberately misleading, and the pro-Remain media are lapping it up…'

Nic
says the compulsive bullshit spreader
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: tequila_nic on December 05, 2017, 04:56:37 PM
says the compulsive bullshit spreader

'lapping it up' indeed

Nic
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 05, 2017, 06:37:06 PM
As I understand it nobody wants to see a border introduced in Ireland. Nobody.

That's the end of your Brexit right there.

A border would contravene the Good Friday agreement so the uneasy peace we have enjoyed in Ireland since it was introduced becomes somewhat uneasier.

The only way there can be no border is for the same regulations to apply north and south because if they do not there'll need to be checks and that ipso facto creates a border.. That'll mean EU regulations. All of them.

If they are to apply in Northern Ireland they will need to apply to all of the UK.

That's the end of taking back control and the promised primacy of UK sovereign power.

We will still have to follow every EU regulation and guideline, we'll have no say in any of them, no possibility of vetoing anything we particularly want to and we'll not only pay £50bn to render us impotent on the European arena but look pretty fucking stupid for doing so which will diminish our soft power globally.

That's how it is.

If we walk away from negotiations we still hurtle off the cliff edge and all of the tensions arising from the New Irish Problem persist.

And Number 10 is apparently confident that a deal can be reached that is acceptable to all parties by 16th December... They are quite rankly deluded.

If they blow out the DUP the government will fall. If they agree to mirror regulations throughout the UK and Ireland their own swivel-eyed loonies will have Theresa May's head on a stick and this government will fall.

Looks like a January general election to me and then we'll see how Corbyn solves the same issues.

Which he will not because they are unsolvable.

The only way forward is to remember that the referendum was only advisory, stop Article 50 and stay in the EU.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 06, 2017, 01:10:36 PM
This man is certifiable.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5151193/David-Davis-says-Brexit-impact-like-2008-crash.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5151193/David-Davis-says-Brexit-impact-like-2008-crash.html)

The useless, incompetent lying Maybot totally mislead the House at PMQs.
According to her, negotiations are on course, no problem with the Irish border.
In a court of law, she would be charged with perjury and sent to prison.
Not long now, Jeremy.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 06, 2017, 04:25:58 PM
20th Oct 2016: David Davis informs parliament that 51 sector by sector Brexit impact reports were being compiled by the government.

6th Dec 2017: David Davis confirms that no sector by sector Brexit impact reports have been compiled by the government.

Is Davis:

a) incompetent
b) negligent
c) a liar

Is there any other explanation for the conflicting statements?

This is absolutely un-fucking-believable.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 06, 2017, 04:45:44 PM
20th Oct 2016: David Davis informs parliament that 51 sector by sector Brexit impact reports were being compiled by the government.

6th Dec 2017: David Davis confirms that no sector by sector Brexit impact reports have been compiled by the government.

Is Davis:

a) incompetent
b) negligent
c) a liar

Is there any other explanation for the conflicting statements?

This is absolutely un-fucking-believable.
would be unbelievable to me as well if I hadn't been kept up to date on brexit NON progress by my MSP - an expert on the subject unlike Tory MPs
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 06, 2017, 06:07:32 PM
When are people going to start getting *really* bloody angry about Brexit?

How much more of this cack-handed, gibbering incompetence and lies will it take?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 06, 2017, 06:14:47 PM
What really amazes me is that these people have been campaigning for Brexit for years and tears. Decades, even, in some cases.

And yet they have the scantest grasp of the problems to be overcome, let alone having any credible solutions to them, imaginable.

Brexit is just an article of faith. Arguing with a Brexiteer is like arguing with a Creationist. It just doesn't matter how the evidence mounts up, how compelling the arguments, how often they are told or how intractable the contradictions.

None of that matters.

They want it because they want it. They like empty, meaningless glib nonsense like "Brexit means Brexit" because it reinforces their own glib meaningless empty faith. It's like trying to reason with a three year old.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 06, 2017, 06:30:52 PM
brexiteers want to turn back clock to world as it was before british empire collapsed & think cutting ties to EU will solve all their problems -- of course they are in total denial that the problems are internal to UK & world has moved on. Fact that SNP has pointed out the problems with brexit has just made the hardline idiots more resolute that brexit must be done!
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 06, 2017, 08:17:28 PM
I do hope those little old ladies in, say, Eastbourne or Worthing who voted Brexit are following this.
I doubt it.
Their concern was too many ‘foreigners’  and Polish sausage in Morrisons.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 07, 2017, 12:04:08 PM
What a load of fucking liars.
Grayling was on BBC TV this morning saying everything was hunky-dory.
Just praying this gang of liars will be slaughtered at the sooner than later, hopefully, General Election.

Apart, Ma’am, there are no aircraft but You referred to it as an aircraft carrier.
What, pray, are You on Ma’am?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Return of the Mac on December 07, 2017, 01:41:51 PM
I do hope those little old ladies in, say, Eastbourne or Worthing who voted Brexit are following this.
I doubt it.
Their concern was too many ‘foreigners’  and Polish sausage in Morrisons.

They come over "ere", work on our building, fill our super duper markets with their sausages, speak a strange language.....and so forth.

I am all for immigration but I would like Britain to govern Britain. We need to reform the WTO and move ahead instead.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 07, 2017, 02:47:20 PM
Having failed to reform the other 28 EU nations to our satisfaction we're going to move on and reform the 158 in the WTO successfully?

Are you for real?

Brexit; the WTO; competitive tariffs; better off outside the EU: all of it is just fantasy.

I wouldn't like it any better if they just came out and said "we want to de-regulate so we can scrap holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay, benefits, privatise the NHS, sell chlorinated chicken, frack everywhere and replace long-term secure workers' contracts with zero hour contracts in order to compete in the global market with Bangladesh and the Phillipines but we can't while we are in the EU" at least it would be (mostly) truthful and understandable.

As it is all we have is an ugly morass of half-baked illogic, lies and ignorance forced upon us as they try to deceive us time and time and time again.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Return of the Mac on December 07, 2017, 03:47:11 PM
Having failed to reform the other 28 EU nations to our satisfaction we're going to move on and reform the 158 in the WTO successfully?

Are you for real?

Brexit; the WTO; competitive tariffs; better off outside the EU: all of it is just fantasy.

I wouldn't like it any better if they just came out and said "we want to de-regulate so we can scrap holiday pay, sick pay, maternity pay, benefits, privatise the NHS, sell chlorinated chicken, frack everywhere and replace long-term secure workers' contracts with zero hour contracts in order to compete in the global market with Bangladesh and the Phillipines but we can't while we are in the EU" at least it would be (mostly) truthful and understandable.

As it is all we have is an ugly morass of half-baked illogic, lies and ignorance forced upon us as they try to deceive us time and time and time again.

An acute case of Brexitphobia.

Let's stay positive. As the 6th biggest economy in the world....we definitely won't get kicked into touch by the bigger economies. They need us like we need them.

And to all the Remoaners( know you hate this tag): be positive. It will work out in the end.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 07, 2017, 04:30:46 PM
No it won't. It won't be anything like that.

We hardly make anything so we won't export our way to prosperity. (Just in case you have forgotten that was a cornerstone objective in George Osborne's first austerity budget - and it hasn't happened.)

So we have to buy everything in or do without. The rest of the world will be able to impose any terms it likes.

Brexit is a hard-right wet dream that amounts to no more than the Bangladeshification of the UK as we race to the bottom of the pile.

It is traitorously bad wilful misjudgement at best and selling the entire country down the river for generations to come at worst.

The only redemption possible will come when people finally 'fess up that they didn't think it would lead to this by which time it will be far, far, far too late.

No point at all in sticking your head in the sand and hoping that optimism will pull us through because it won't. That's akin to the Titanic's ice berg spotter seeing the damned thing well in advance and not bothering to try to avoid it. Be as optimistic as him if you like but The Titanic still sunk.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 07, 2017, 05:22:13 PM

Let's stay positive. As the 6th biggest economy in the world....we definitely won't get kicked into touch by the bigger economies. They need us like we need them.

And to all the Remoaners( know you hate this tag): be positive. It will work out in the end.

You do realise, ROTM, that the next, and quite soon now, Prime Minister will be Jeremy Corbett, the Chancellor, John McDonnell and the Home Secretary, Diane Abbott, don’t you.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 07, 2017, 06:02:22 PM
It's pointless pointing out the points David Davis made here.

I will anyway.

David Davis in his own words:

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQW-7UFWkAICuBp.jpg)
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sven on December 07, 2017, 09:15:05 PM
An acute case of Brexitphobia.

Let's stay positive. As the 6th biggest economy in the world....we definitely won't get kicked into touch by the bigger economies. They need us like we need them.

And to all the Remoaners( know you hate this tag): be positive. It will work out in the end.

Why would they bother investment in a place which has deliberately left a fantastic trading agreement, and is publicly making a mess of things in the exit negotiation.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Q13.1 on December 07, 2017, 10:39:06 PM
UK gold exports trade deficit brexit. Look it up.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 08, 2017, 10:07:32 AM
Is it fucking necessary to be so dramatic and breathless from working through the night to get an agreement?
Are we supposed to applaud Maybot?
More important, WHAT is the agreement?
How has the circle of the Irish border been squared?
So far, just waffle.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 08, 2017, 11:19:54 AM
We're going to take back control of our borders by not having one.

There's going to be freedom of movement with the EU, freedom of movement within Ireland and freedom of movement within the UK.

Quite how this is going to help to control EU immigration into the UK is beyond me.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 08, 2017, 11:33:09 AM
On top of which UK will obey EU regulations without any say in them, European Court supremacy in some areas and EU payments continue for years, EU Citizens rights in UK guaranteed.

Brexit means Brexit?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 08, 2017, 11:36:21 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQg7Sx7XkAAvDjs.jpg)
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 08, 2017, 11:49:57 AM
We're going to negotiate hard and get the best Brexit deal possible and that will be either whatever the EU decides to let us have or nothing at all.

For which we'll pay a vast sum of money, lose free access to the EU market and have absolutely no say over regulations which we will have to abide by anyway which we once could have vetoed.

That's what taking back control will mean to us.

The words "Pyrrhic" and "Victory" spring to mind. In fact "victories" don't get much Pyrrhicer.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 08, 2017, 11:59:38 AM
We lost on the ECJ
We lost on having control of our borders.
We lost out on paying £20 billion, now £40 billion and rising.
We lost on not being in the Customs union for the transition period.
This is Maybot’s ‘Red, White and Blue’ Brexit.
Strong and stable?
What a liar this woman is.
And a vicar’s daughter too.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Return of the Mac on December 08, 2017, 01:01:19 PM
She has bad posture problem. No one taught how to keep her back straight.

I do feel sorry for her...not because she's a damn Tory...but I think she's getting bullied by the men in her party. The enemy within.
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 08, 2017, 04:57:40 PM
Your first line - she always looks as if she’s about to evacuate her bowels.

Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: barky on December 08, 2017, 06:50:05 PM
ha ... born & live in NI = you remain an EU citizen & will presumably vote for your MEP in summer 2019 ... WTAF?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: bababarararacucucudadada on December 08, 2017, 11:41:56 PM
Brexit negotiations, to date:

• Same regulations
• Same open borders
• Same European courts
• Same single market
• Same payments to EU

But:
• Lost all say in EU rules
• Squandered 1000s of jobs
• Knocked 18% off the pound
• Risked the Union
• Spent £50 billion
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Sir Rocis de Liver on December 09, 2017, 09:39:08 AM
I read somewhere that MPs and especially the Cabinet become so far removed from people and remote from everyday life that they they live in a World of their own.
It’s in the very nature of our representative democracy.
Hence, say, Farage, and abroad, Trump and Mare le Pen.
I am beginning to think there is some truth in this.
Especially, Vinegar Lil.
Is she really unaware of how much she is reviled?
Title: Re: Ireland, Northern Ireland and Brexit
Post by: Return of the Mac on December 09, 2017, 06:31:31 PM
We did say that she was Weak and Wobbly.